Curse

DreamWind · Feb 09, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Draws are possible and can happen if the teams play normally. This was a clear agreement to do conga lines for 28 minutes. That means there was an agreement to create a synthetic draw. That is the issue, not the draw itself.

Ok let me make this more clear.

There is no mention of intentional draws in the rules, and intentional draws are generally considered normal in most swiss formats. This is particularly true in a system that Anet created, where intentional draws are not only possible, but easy to do.

Manupulation is still generally considered conceding or trying to get others to concede, with some form of compensation being the worst case scenarios.

blooQkazoo · Feb 09, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

I want you to MATHEMATICALLY prove this to me, because I did the math.

I dont know about the rest of you guys but I stopped reading there and just laughed. I found it funny how someone could sit down and actually put a pencil to paper and calculate the outcome of a stupid useless match like this one. I would've rather spent my time putting a pencil to paper and drawing a ballsac or something. Or actually drinking a milkshake.

Back on topic:
The punishment was equally as useless as doing the math for this stupid match. Honestly, it wasn't even a slap on the wrist for rawr and zero. The punishment was more along the lines of a parent telling their baby child "Nooooo that's not right. Don't do it again, honey babycakes." after the kid says "shit" all the while they're patting them on the head and smiling.

Let me try and do the math:
Ladder manipulation + punishment = funnay ass joke

DragonRogue · Feb 09, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

I must agree that Anets "punishment" is pretty weak at best. But we see many weak punishments around here all the time. IE botting HFFF, gold buyers, abusive language in Local Chat, etc (not that some of those are pvp). I can think of only one time where it was harsh and unilateral. *ahem 117 cough*. We dont really know all that goes on around the headquarters at Anet, but seriously this looks like favoritism at its worst. I know that something must be done in the way of rules and such around here, but seriously Anet, when are we going to see some consistancy in those rulings and fairness to all? You have just proven, once again, that its who you know.

Reguardless, these guilds have been headlines for a long time and have made a name for themselves. Now we, the fans of once great teams, must sit back and wonder if they truly are what we have always thought, and what they have always claimed. It was obvious this time, but how do we know they havent been doing this all along? I know, personally, im pretty disappointed by their actions in this and will doubt their credibility from now on. They have muddied thier name in this and will have much work ahead, to prove that they are deserving of the record they have seemed to have had in the past. Id like to think that they are truly shamed by what they have done. But we all know that some people are incapable of such feelings when pride and bragging rights are on the line.

Yang Whirlwind · Feb 09, 2009, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Ok let me make this more clear.

There is no mention of intentional draws in the rules, and intentional draws are generally considered normal in most swiss formats. This is particularly true in a system that Anet created, where intentional draws are not only possible, but easy to do.

Manupulation is still generally considered conceding or trying to get others to concede, with some form of compensation being the worst case scenarios.

Every set of sports rules in existence stipulates that you must play to the best of your abilities. Not doing so is considered unsportsmanlike behavior.
Any attempt at manipulating results are against the rules. Period!
You may have a different opinion, but it is not your game.

DreamWind · Feb 09, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yang Whirlwind

Every set of sports rules in existence stipulates that you must play to the best of your abilities. Not doing so is considered unsportsmanlike behavior.
Any attempt at manipulating results are against the rules. Period!
You may have a different opinion, but it is not your game.

Uh...are you serious? Intentional draws have been a part of almost every game since the swiss format was invented. It is a COMMON PRACTICE. Now if Anet wants to say it is against the rules of their game that is fine...but do so BEFORE the fact and NOT after.

Shadowspawn X · Feb 09, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

The players made a mistake and were found guilty. I won't say they should forever lose their gold cape or be banned from the game they enjoy so much because thats not right. I won't blame or defend Anet or their faulty game mechanics that should have been fixed months ago. But what I will ask for is fairness to all players and that the favoritism stop.

I draw your attention to February 5th 2009 a precedent was set in this game. There was a update to the XTH which passed out reward points to those who participated in the monthly betting. Then less than an hour later then was a second update which allowed thousands of players to receive a double payout of reward points. With in the hour Regina was posting on the forums that everyone who received this "second payout" would have to return the points and will all have their accounts debited the overpayment. This set a precedent that if someone gets reward points though ill gotten means weather a broken game mechanic or exploiting a gaff by Anet then restitution of those RP's must be paid back.

Then the very next day February 6th 2009 the punishment is handed down after two weeks of deliberation. Somehow it seems fitting that rawr and zero don't have to give back their reward points after thousands of GW players were punished for doing the exact same thing. Which was taking advantage of a broken game(many unknowingly). Joe casual gamer is walking around with negative reward points because he got 30RP's twice. While the elite professional gamers nab thousands of reward points after being found guilty of scandal. Yes this is favoritism and it is wrong. This is my issue with Anet they have two sets of rules one for the masses and one for the elite.

bel unbreakable · Feb 10, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Intentional draw or otherwise not trying your best is cheating if two other guilds had intentionaly drawn a match in order to prevent rawr from progressing you can bet your last quid they would have put the boot in big time.

Gun Pierson · Feb 10, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

While the elite professional gamers nab thousands of reward points after being found guilty of scandal.

You have a point there. I still think they made a good call on the punishment itself, but I forgot about the reward points. If they got points that they didn't 'legitimatelly' earn, then they should be taken back. That's common sense.

Taking their trim away means they didn't deserve their position and they should not rake in the rewards that come with that position. Or am I seeing this wrong?

An explenation from someone unbiased or Anet would be nice.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 10, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

:::::::::We are aware of how contentious this ruling was.
We knew that there wouldn't be 100% agreement on the decision. I've brought the feedback here to the rest of the team.
Many of the opinions have already been raised to the team. All the emails regarding this issue have been brought to
the attention of the team as well.
- ::::::::::This discussion seems to be devolving.
Suggesting that I am "retarded" or swearing at me isn't going to change the decision, and it
won't make me more inclined to listen to your perspective. Please keep this in mind for the future.
--[[User:Regina Buenaobra|Regina Buenaobra]] 00:15, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
- :::::::::::I consider this discussion closed: we have already taken your comments and disagreements
on board, I have reported them to the team, and we will keep these views in mind in the future.
However, we believe that a measured response to the incident was appropriate, given all of the
circumstances involved, the rules issue, the AT system, the state of the game, and so on.
--[[User:Regina Buenaobra|Regina Buenaobra]] 00:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I can't give a link, because the section on her discussion page has been deleted.

BTW: Is there even a 20% agreement on the decision??

kokuou · Feb 10, 2009, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

I can't give a link, because the section on her discussion page has been deleted.

Not deleted, archived.

Delver · Feb 10, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Speaking of /roll in HB, when can I start sending in screenshots of people asking for /roll games as those are ladder manipulators without a doubt. It would be great if some could spot out the thousands of /roll games during those double HB weekends.

Kashrlyyk · Feb 10, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Noone stops you from sending them in.

Dmitri3 · Feb 10, 2009, 09:23 PM // 21:23

It's just no one will care cause it's not rawr.

DarkNecrid · Feb 10, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Uh...are you serious? Intentional draws have been a part of almost every game since the swiss format was invented. It is a COMMON PRACTICE. Now if Anet wants to say it is against the rules of their game that is fine...but do so BEFORE the fact and NOT after.

Chess is the only sport that lets players intentionally draw. It does this by allowing players to offer their opponent a draw.

Every other sport not only does not allow players to offer the other team a draw, but has official rules in tournament play to prevent draws of the unintentional kind, whether it is extra sudden death overtime in American Football (although if no team gains points during this time, it will tie, which makes American Football the only American sport that can end in a draw through gameplay), extra innings in baseball (There was a game in the 1920s that went to 26 innings!), extra plays in Basketball, champion retaining title in Boxing, tie breaker in Hockey, tiebreaker game in Tennis, etc and rules to prevent draws OF the intentional kind, whether it is to have players removed from the game, a ref declaring a forfeit (the common punishment in Football), etc.

You might be able to intentional draw with your friends or something in a friendly Swiss game of a pro sport, but if you attempted it in the actual swiss rounds of a pro league (which would be the equivalent of the ATs in GW right now), it would not fly.

Bonehead · Feb 11, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Realize: there is no "/tie" function. There is no way of intentionally tying without violating sportsmanship.

Ladder manipulation is debatable, sportsmanship or lack thereof is more concrete.

Lord Sojar · Feb 11, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Rawr is bad and evil, and they have sinned. They deserve to be smote. Can we leave it at that please?

DreamWind · Feb 11, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Chess is the only sport that lets players intentionally draw. It does this by allowing players to offer their opponent a draw.

MTG and just about every other card game in existence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Every other sport not only does not allow players to offer the other team a draw, but has official rules in tournament play to prevent draws of the unintentional kind, whether it is extra sudden death overtime in American Football (although if no team gains points during this time, it will tie, which makes American Football the only American sport that can end in a draw through gameplay), extra innings in baseball (There was a game in the 1920s that went to 26 innings!), extra plays in Basketball, champion retaining title in Boxing, tie breaker in Hockey, tiebreaker game in Tennis, etc and rules to prevent draws OF the intentional kind, whether it is to have players removed from the game, a ref declaring a forfeit (the common punishment in Football), etc.

Many of the games you name don't use a swiss tournament format. They use a league playoff format which is quite different. But that is beside the point...the point is that if Anet specifically had a rule that ID's were illegal, then that would be perfectly ok. But to say after the fact that they are illegal is a joke to me.

Sweet Mystery · Feb 11, 2009, 12:40 PM // 12:40

When it comes to it, removing something from a cape means tiddlysquat.....

Do what others get - ban them for a period of time. Or dont ban for breaking rules... it's dual standards....

desrtrat · Feb 12, 2009, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Wow.. I'm not a PvP player...cause I suck and PvP players are brutal about letting you know that haha..

After reading this entire thread (yes.. I'm that bored) It seems like what's being argued here is whether or not rules were broken and if so, did the punishment fit. Whether the rules were broken seems to be semantycs. By the letter of the law, did rawr and zero break the rules? No. There's nothing that specifically states "Teams cannot have an intentional draw".. but did they violate the spirit of the system? I think so, as do many others apparently. This MIGHT be acceptable or forgiven from a new or inexperienced guild, but these guys know better. They're all pros. From previous posts, another guild [QQ] wasn't forgiven and was banned for a whole season for asking the other team to resign. If they were going to punish [QQ] that severely (personally I think it was excessive), it only seems fair they would do something similar to rawr and zero. Rawr and zero knew exactly what they were doing. Given that, it does seem the punishment is a little light.

A DQ from the tournament seems like it would have been more appropriate. From my point of view.. you're in a tournament to fight. If you're not going to fight (for WHATEVER reason), you don't belong there....just my opinion..

Snow Bunny · Feb 12, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

The best part is that you don't all see that [rawr] and [zero] won, not Anet.

They knew that they'd get a slap on the wrist. They knew that GWG forum members would debate this endlessly, and that a couple of fanboys would defend them to the last breath, no matter how many veritable interpretations of rules and how many FACTS were thrust in their faces.

There is absolutely precedent for a harsher punishment. Vanquisher of [QQ] requested a resign from Black Rose Gaming, which was reported, and subsequently resulted in a [QQ] suspension.

In this instance, both parties collaborated flagrantly and gleefully, showing just how little they care for the light punishments to be doled out on them.

What are they going to lose...zkeys? a trim that's completely devalued?